Update: Grandmother Guilty Of First-Degree Murder In Toddler Death Case
A jury found Carmela dela Rosa, 51, guilty of first-degree murder Thursday for throwing her granddaughter over a Tysons Corner Center walkway last November
Photos
Update 5:46 p.m.: Commonwealth Attorney Ray Morrogh said the verdict given to Carmela dela Rosa was a "just result," but said trying the case was "grueling" and there were "no winners in a case like this."
"[There's] no joy," Morrogh said. "This is a scar that’s not going to go away.”
“We’ve all lost a little piece of our hearts in this thing,” he said.
Defense attorney Dawn Butorac said she was disappointed in the verdict; she believed dela Rosa was truly insane at the time of the crime.
Morrogh said he spoke to James and Kat Ogdoc, 2-year-old Angelyn Ogdoc's parents, after the sentencing and said they’re both devastated after re-hashing the events surrounding their daughter's death.
“They’re just surviving. Thank God they love each other … they’re just coping as best they can," he said. “I wish them peace."
Morrogh thanked assistant commonwealth attorney Casey Lingan and Fairfax County Police Detective Stephen Needels, the lead investigator in the case.
Update 5:12 p.m.: The jury has given Carmela dela Rosa 35 years in prison.
There will be a sentencing hearing on Jan. 6, 2012, when a judge can decrease that sentence if he or she chooses but cannot increase it.
Update 4:50 p.m.: Carmela dela Rosa could face anywhere from 20 years to life in prison, depending on the outcome of jury deliberations this afternoon.
Circuit Court Judge Bruce White gave the jury four sentencing options for dela Rosa on Thursday: Life in prison, life in prison plus a fine of up to $100,000, a prison term that must be at least 20 years long, or a prison term that must be at least 20 years long with a fine that cannot exceed $100,000.
White also said when prisoners turn 65 and have served at least five years of their sentence, or when they turn 60 and have served at least 10 years of their sentence, they can “petition the parole board for conditional release.”
Kat and James Ogdoc, 2-year-old Angelyn Ogdoc’s parents, gave the jury witness impact statements shortly after they delivered their verdict.
James Ogdoc called his daughter “a gift.”
“No parent should have to bury their child,” he said.
Kat Ogdoc, dela Rosa’s daughter, talked about the ambulance ride to the hospital, recalling how the last thing she heard was her daughter crying before EMTs sedated the child in order to get her to relax.
Today, “It’s hard for us to even go in her room,” Ogdoc said. “ I don’t get to wake up next to her.”
“She’ll never be able to go to kindergarten. I can’t teach her how to put makeup on. We can’t teach her how to drive. She won’t be able to grow up,” Ogdoc said.
Nathaniel Russ Sr, dela Rosa’s brother-in-law; Nathaniel Russ Jr., dela rosa’s nephew; and dela rosa’s sister Rebecca Russ all described Carmela as a loving, devoted family person. Her sister described how drastically her appearance has changed since she’s been incarcerated.
Russ Sr. said the family would provide any sort of mental health support she needs if and when she gets out of prison.
Original 3:40 p.m.:A 51-year-old grandmother was found guilty of first-degree murder by a Fairfax County Circuit Court jury on Thursday.
Carmela dela Rosa was arrested Nov. 29, 2010, after she tossed her 2-year-old granddaughter, Angelyn Ogdoc, off a 44-foot pedestrian bridge at the Tysons Corner Center mall. The child died from her injuries in Fairfax Hospital less than 12 hours after the fall. Her grandmother was charged with the murder and incarcerated.
As they entered deliberations Wednesday night, the jury prepared to choose from four verdicts: not guilty; not guilty by reason of insanity; guilty of first-degree murder, which implies the act was willful, deliberate and premeditated; or guilty of second-degree murder, which implies the act was committed but without those motives.
First-degree murder also implies malice; second-degree murder does not.
The jury an hour discussing those options last night and another five and a half hours deliberating Thursday before delivering the verdict at 3:40 p.m.
James and Kat Ogdoc, Angelyn Ogdoc's parents, took the stand shortly after the jury announced its verdict, giving witness impact statements. The jury was expected to be given sentencing instructions shorly afterward.
In Virginia, first-degree murder carries a maximum penalty of life in prison.
On Sept. 26, dela Rosa pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. Her defense team, led by public defender Dawn Butorac, attempted to paint dela Rosa as a loving, caring and thoughtful woman who suffered from an increasingly severe mental illness. Several friends and family members testified about her personality, specifically how it drastically changed during her bouts of major depressive disorder. A number of psychologists and psychiatrists who have treated dela Rosa during the past 10 years also took the stand.
The prosecution, led by the Commonwealth's Attorney Ray Morrogh, said depressed women don't murder their granddaughters.
To be found not guilty by reason of insanity, Butorac needed to prove dela Rosa did not understand the "nature, character or consequences" of her actions or could not distinguish between right and wrong at the time of the offense.
Expert witness Michael Hendricks, a psychologist who testified for the defense on Tuesday, determined dela Rosa exhibited delusion-like qualities when she committed the crime and fit the legal definition of insanity. For example, she told police she thought her family was excluding her from their secret form of communication.
Stanton Samenow, an expert psychologist who testified for the commonwealth on Wednesday, discredited Hendricks' theory. Samenow said dela Rosa was simply an angry woman who couldn't control her rage and took it out on her innocent granddaughter. He said she had a borderline personality disorder, and had several resources to treat it but chose not to do so.
On Nov. 29, mall security tapes show the dela Rosa family, including Carmela, her husband Leandro, their two children David dela Rosa and Kat Ogdoc, and Kat's daughter, Angelyn, entering the food court at Tysons Corner Center. The group ate kebabs and shared frozen yogurt. Angelyn rode on the recreational train with David.
In police interrogation videos, Carmela dela Rosa said she felt like her family was excluding her from their conversations during that dinner — that they were secretly communicating in a way she didn't understand. She also became angry when her son David refused to let her take a picture of him. But it wasn't until James Ogdoc, Kat's husband, called from work, that she decided she would hurt Angelyn.
Dela Rosa told police she had resented her son-in-law for years because he impregnated her teenage daughter, preventing her from meeting new people and exploring the world.
Though Kat Ogdoc, dela Rosa's daughter and Angelyn Ogdoc's mother, testified her mother only held the baby when it was necessary and she tended to be standoffish, others described Angelyn as the light of dela Rosa's life after she was born. She called Angelyn "lovey." She babysat. She brought back baby clothes for the infant from the Philippines.
When James Ogdoc called his wife Kat on her cell phone during dinner that night, dela Rosa said she didn't understand why he needed to interrupt her time with the family. She began to project her hatred of James onto Angelyn.
Samenow said dela Rosa told him in interviews she first thought about throwing Angelyn earlier in the evening, when the child began to play with the automatic doors that led outside to the walkway. But something held her back, she said.
As the family left the mall, security tapes show dela Rosa letting her family exit the building before she and Angelyn follow. She pauses with Angelyn just before she lifts the girl up and throws her over the edge.
"It's chilling now seeing it and knowing what's going to happen," Morrogh said Wednesday during closing arguments. "She was intent on completing this horrible act."
One witness, who was walking on the sidewalk below, said it looked like a jacket had fallen over the edge of the bridge. Another witness, who was driving by, said she thought she saw a bird out of the corner of her eye.
Kat Ogdoc and David and Leandro dela Rosa immediately ran down six flights of stairs to Angelyn. Carmela dela Rosa stayed, leaning over the edge of the railing and watching the chaos unfold below her. Hendricks testified this was evidence she was still stuck in her delusion.
Whether she was in a delusion at that point, the testimony of several witnesses made clear dela Rosa's depression became much more severe during the summer of 2010. She attempted suicide four times that fall. She would go days without showering. She lost her appetite, and would hide away for hours in her bedroom. She missed appointments with her long-time therapist.
A week before Thanksgiving, dela Rosa learned that her brother died in the Philippines. She bought a plane ticket to fly back for the funeral — even packed her bags — but said she could not leave her house. Her husband and son traveled to Ocean City, Md., for five days that week and she stayed at home by herself. When Leandro and David dela Rosa returned around lunchtime Nov. 29, Carmela had not eaten, showered or taken her anti-depressant medications since they left.
The defense argued dela Rosa was physically and emotionally starving that day and the stressors at Tysons Corner Center were too much for her to handle.
"This tragedy was caused by mental illness," Butorac said.
"This isn't insanity," Morrogh said. "This is depravity."
For all past coverage of this trial, click here
El
4:11 pm on Thursday, October 6, 2011
Sweet justice!
David Daur
9:46 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
It's not sweet justice... it may seem so at this time but unfortunately, she will be out in 8 to 12 years.
How is that sweet justice for taking an innocent 2 yeard olds life... and she was her grandmother by blood no less. The Devil is dancing here on earth!
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
10:28 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Virginia law allows her to have a parole hearing in 14 years. Even if she has a hearing, it is unlikely they would free her so she could be sent to a secure mental health facility and then when well closely supervised on outpatient medications to be sure she takes her medications, as parole boards don't understand or care about insanity.
Ritchie
6:58 pm on Thursday, October 6, 2011
Execution would be in order. Failing that a prison sentence equivalent to her age, 50 years.
momgrandma12791298
9:04 pm on Thursday, October 6, 2011
Bull! Just pure mean as HELL!!!
Peggy Prater Mcmillan
10:57 pm on Thursday, October 6, 2011
Pre meditated, she thought about doing it earlier in the evening, then waited till they left and did it, I believe that would be pre meditated, if she has mental problems, stick in an insane asylum, for a few years.
Penny Ford
1:29 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I thought the same thing that it was pre meditated because she said she thought of doing it earlier in the evening. Mental problems yes, and I hope she gets the help she needs, and I agree that she should be put some place to get that kind of help. I don't think they have the "insane asylum" they do have a place to put the mentally ill like her, but I sure can't remember the name of it, we have a place in MICHIGAN in Ypsi and it's part of a hospital (at least we used to don't know if it's still open) the name of the place "MERCY WOOD" that;s where they used to take the mentally ill now I don't know.
BShum3
11:09 pm on Thursday, October 6, 2011
This may be a great miscarriage of justice . If she was being treated for mental illness and or depression , what medications was she given ? There is a lot of eveidence that many medications such as Prozac can make a person homicidal . There are expert witnesses that have testified in other such trials .
David
1:16 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Okay Odelia, if she was only planning on hurting the baby..which by the way is more then enough reason to lock her up..what was she doing on that overpass? Just standing there thinking about a good way to hurt the baby? Get real lady. Of course she's going to say she was insane when she did it. It's one of the favorite lines for killers to use. One thing to address that you said. If she is indeed mentally ill and snapped as you put it do you think she should be out on the streets where she might do the exact same thing when she gets depressed and snaps. Mayube that time she'll kill one of your children if you have any. Will you still be a sympathetic towards her then?
Penny Ford
1:35 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
BShum3:
I am now on Prozac and I told my doctor that I really didn't want to be on that because a friend of mine her husband worked at the school in a high level job. One of the teachers was taking prozac and went in his office and shot the friends husband and killed him. There was a long story about that, so when my doctor put me on it I asked, he said we will keep an eye on you and if you want counseling he'll get it for me and I'm thinking about the counseling, I really think I need it, because my emotions are all over the place.
Laurie Dodd
7:30 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Penny Ford, with your emotions "all over the place" since you started Prozac, I think it makes sense for you to get counseling in addition. They often work well together. Becoming violent due to Prozac is very rare. Please get the additional help you need.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:59 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
David - when one is found not guikty by insanity they are not "put out on the street". They are placed in a secure mental health facility and treated and only released if they are not a danger to society and then only under supervision. The time in the mental health facility may be longer than a court sentence, especially if they have a mental illness that relapses easily or is untreatable.
Glenn Posner
11:39 pm on Thursday, October 6, 2011
Couldn't they just simply harvest her organs so that others, more worthy, could enjoy a better life?
Odelia
12:12 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
After reading her recent mental status history, there's no doubt in my mind this lady "snapped". I think she was severely mentally ill when she committed the crime. It is possible she was hearing voices when she committed the "crime", telling her to do so or something to that effect. And/or her meds had the adverse effects of having her to commit the killing. Or she stopped taking her meds and relapsed. She did not plan to be at that place ahead of time to do the fatal act. It was impulsive behavior characteristic of a person with severe mood disorder. She did it at that point and time. There are so many details missing in this case! It has to be retried, I think.
David
12:50 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
If I remember correctly the Son of Sam serial killer said he heard voices telling him to do it. I'm pretty sure there were others who said the same thing. Should we be feeling sorry for them too? The woman killed a baby!! Screw all the pity and concern. Let her out and who knows if those voices you're talking about won't tell her to do it again. There are meds for a number of illnesses but I'm not aware of any that help with that. She's a danger and should be locked away. How do you think the dead child's parents would feel if they said she shouldn't be locked up for what she did?
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:29 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
"The One's" comment that she deserves a "hammer to the head" advocates murder and should be deleted. This forum should not allow comments that advocate murder.
Kevin
12:13 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
SHE WAS GETTING LONELY AND DEPRESSION NOT GETTING THE ATTENTION SEE NEEDED. SHE NEEDS PEOPLE TO TALK TO IF YOU LEAVE IT OUT GRANDPARENTS BECOME LONELY AND WANT TO DIE.
ASIAN WAY ARE THAT WAY THAN AMERICAN WHITE PEOPLE ARE, ASAIN ARE MORE CLOSE TO FAMILY AND TO TAKE CARE OF THE PARENTS. BUT THIS FAMILY DECIDED NOT TO DO THAT AND LEAVE HER OUT SO IT WAS THE ONLY OUT TO GET THE ATTENTION SHE NEEDS.
David
12:53 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
What a crock of hooey.! Do you seriously think that a person who is feeling lonely and ignored would think..I want some attention so I'm going to kill my grandchild. That's so incredibly ridiculous it's funny.
Simon
2:02 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you actually believe what you just said.
Shelia Kennedy Ronquest
9:56 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Well she has plenty of people to talk to her now and I am sure where she is they will all understand how loneliness could drive you to KILL your own grand baby! NOT! When you are lonely you simply do not kill the people that could keep you from that loneliness!
abry
11:01 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
If what you are saying is true. Than go back to your country where killing your grandchildren is more acceptable. She was getting help from doctors and meds. She did not take them. If she was that bad before this happened than someone should have locked her up a long time ago. I seriously cant get over your comment. The culture of white America usually is killing is bad and you need to pay for your crime. And if your a member of the family that did it, that is beyond words. You think because she is sad for being left out killing her grandchild was okay, no big deal. Well she certainly is getting all the attention she wants now isnt she. At the cost of a little girls life. And if she was feeling lonely she should have thrown herself over. It was an act of hate. Hate at everyone around her and she used the baby to show them what they get when she gets ignored. No pity for any culture who would use this as an excuse. Message coming from a white, female, american who is a parent. So dont pass this Asian way this way, go back to Asia where there seems to be a big graveyard full of dead grandchildren.
Rosalinda Duarte
12:29 pm on Wednesday, October 12, 2011
You're an idiot.
Marilyn
12:17 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
The sentence is lenient considering the crime. Murdering a child should carry the death penalty, period. And to BShum3, there is no miscarriage of justice here. Her mental health was evaluated by people far more knowledgeable about the field than you or I. At least THAT flimsy excuse didn't work. There is NO DEFENSE for murdering a child.
Peggy Prater Mcmillan
12:36 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I agree, if she's that bad off she should be in an insane asylum, do they still have those? if they don't they should. She thought about killing her grandchiled earlier in the evening (her words) but she waited till they left? Not pre-meditated?
Ronald Ferreira
12:19 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
shes not insane she kindly admited why she killed the kid simple as that.
jim
12:31 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Hopefully she will be thrown from the roof of the prison, or at least the inmates will hopefully take care of CHILD MURDERS like they usually do and she will come out FEET FIRST!! What a Useless piece of Child Abusing Murdering piece of human refuse!!
Penny Ford
2:19 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I agree with 100 +% I also think like Marilyn that if you kill a child especially on purpose it should carry the death penalty. There is no reason in the world to kill a child (Now under the circumstances in other countries with famine and all the other medical problems kids and the elderly have to deal with) maybe (doing what they do to animals) putting them to sleep so they don't wake up. Just trying to figure out things that may help people who have to decided what each person gets a far as jail time. I think if you kill a policeman/woman, kids (No matter what the reason) death penalty should take place. I also know that no matter what happens the kids will be missed.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:27 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Advocating murder is a comment that should be deleted like yelling fire in a crowded theatre. It is NEVER appropriate.
Kelly
1:21 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I could not imagine my mother throwing my child over a bridge!! I would have thrown her right over, I dont care if it was my mother!!! That is horrible! I hope she gets what she deserves in prison, she knew what she was doing, she admited it! Also I hope when she does die she rots in hell! That poor child suffered for almost 12 hours to! May that child rest in peace!
brenda
2:02 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
maybe she was possessed! (sp)? ...just sayin
Penny Ford
2:23 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
What in Hell ever happened to being with Grandma is fun to play with you, the always have cookies in the cookie jar, they always make sure you hav everything you'll
Ronald Ferreira
6:25 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
no excuses for murder drugs prozac voices what ever life in prison no matter what
Kathie
7:43 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
It sure is heartbreaking. It's a shame she didnt run away from her beautiful Grandchild and tell people she was thinking of hurting her. Her Grandchild is up in Heaven now and she has forgiven her. May God have pity on her soul for hurting her Granddaughter.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
7:58 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
The comments here are sick & prove that the jury should not decide whether someone is mentally ill, but a panel of experts should decide as she was CLEARLY insane. Depression can progress to psychosis where a person believes unbelievable things like that voices are telling them to kill someone & does not mean that a person cannot plan an act. If you believe voices are telling you to kill someone, you may carefully plan the act but still be so psychotic that you don't understand that the act is wrong. The great misunderstanding of mental illness in our society & comments here suggest that the average person in society thinks that mental illness is a person's fault & they deserve no treatment & fail to see that our mental health system is inadequate & fail to understand what the world is like for someone who is psychotic. Psychotic thought processes are bizarre. This could have been prevented with proper mental health care. Yes murdering a child is horrible, but having a mental illness causing a psychosis is as horrible as cancer. Even worse is being convicted of a crime when you are insane. She is not guilty by reason of insanity & should be spending decades in a mental health facility & not a prison where she won't get appropriate treatment & too much money will be wasted on unnecessaryily guarding her & using heavy restraints. She will be unlikely to cope with prison due to her psychosis & will be wrongfully a target of other prisoners for killing a toddler.
TCS
9:19 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
If you are truly a doctor then you should know how to read. The article did say she was on medication and, at times, CHOOSE not to take it. I don't buy this whole insane defense. If you ask most people if they believe when someone says they are insane, after commiting some heinous act, they will tell you no because it is used TOO often to get people off. She said she did it because she felt left out and to get back at her son-in-law for knocking up her teenage daughter. In some states, you can get the death penalty for molesting a child but when you murder an innocent child seems all you get is a few years...30 years is not long enough. Well, mostly...I won't cite the most recent case where the mother got off scott free! RIP Angelyn.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:31 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
35 yrs may not be a life sentence for a 20 yr old but it likely is one for a 51 yr old woman. How can you rationally "Choose" when you are psychotic. When one is psychiotic, then ALL their actions are colored and driven by their delusional (bizarre and crazy) beliefs. A person can do rational tasks yet be driven by a psychotic delusion. For example, someone might believe I am a murderer from Mars due to a psychotic delusion, then "rationally" according to the delusion choose to plot to protect the world from me. If on medication, the psychotic delusion may make a person stop taking meds because they believe the meds are poisining them or being given to them by their enemy. You don't know what the psychiatrist found out except that the defense psychiatrist testified she was insane. The prosecutors can always find a hired gun psychiatrist to twist the facts and support their assertion that the person is not insane. You say TOO often people get off. Do you not believe that there is mental illness that may be curable that an drive a person's criminal acts? 11% of the pop is mentally ill and our inadequate health care system refuses to take care of them. Look at Loughner and Congressman Gaby! I personally believe people have the right to treatment and a healthy mental condition just like I believe people have a right to cancer treatment.
Jamie Barnhard
10:57 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I lost my dear 13 y/o Son and Ex wife to Filicide - Murder two months ago. Montgomery County Child Protective Services dismissed my child welfare complaints as unfounded and closed the case files.Some people shouldn't allowed to around children. If you have a bad feeling about someone do something. Unfortunately I was blown out of the water by my Ex her high paid lawyers and her expert witnesses.
Being in a fight with both hands tied behind your back is no fun. I'm left to pick up the pieces. I have a hole in my hear that won't heal. Her sisters that came from California took what they wanted including my Son's life insurance money and left me with nothing. Just pictures, trinkets and memories. My Ex MURDERED my Son I didn't.
Janie.Klir
8:01 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
This was nothing but pre-meditated murder is what it was. i dont buy the insanity crap when this lady is saying i thought of hurting her when this happened and when that happened and oh i hate my son in law garbage and etc. No this piece of crap murdered this baby plain and simple no insanity to it. They need tp put her away for good so she cant di this ever again to anyone. God Bless this little angels parents and may they find alittle peace somehow. God Bless You.
jason puniak
8:02 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
this type of crap makes me want to puke. i say fire up the grill and FRY HER
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
8:09 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
The venom of the comments here are an emotional and non-rational reaction to hearing a toddler was killed by a family member. This is horrible beyond belief, but the venom is misplaced. This wouldn't happen if there was proper mental health care and if the public was more educated about it to recognize when someone needs help. She is innocent by reason of insanity. She was a bad grandma because of a ten year history of clearly inadequately treated mental illness. We have pity on someone with terminal cancer but not terminal mental illness!!! That is what is sick here. No rational grandma would have done this then stood there and stared at the scene. If she had premeditated this in a rational way she would have done it in a way that no one watched and she was able to get away and not be found out! To me, those who make the comments to "fry her", "that shes a piece of shit", etc., are the truly sick people in our society. I fear them more than her as they have no empathy or understanding. Lack of understanding can be as dangerous as psychosis.
TCS
9:28 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I can't believe you are outraged at the outrage! Please tell me where you practice so I don't ever go to or send a loved one to you. Please remember your statements about our jury system when, GOD forbid, something horrible like this happens to one of your family members. If the insane defense weren't used at every turn then MAYBE jury's would believe when it is truly fact. Until then...I STILL don't buy your argument!
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:40 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Horrible things have happened to my family due to mental illness. I do NOT blame the perpetrator. I blame our government for denying mental health care and medical care to those that need it and failing to educate the public to recognize and get help for the mentally ill and to understand mental illness. A person can act normal but be completely psychotic and without you knowing it doing horrible things. The insane defense is used much less often than you think and even when a person is found not guilty by reason of insanity, they are kept in a secure mental health facility where they actually get treatment unlike in prison, for decades and sometimes for a longer period than a prison sentence. Look at Pres. Reagan's shooter!
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:47 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
The courts are way off and barbaric in treatment of mental illness. The entire system needs reform, from the definition of insane or mentally ill, to the consequences and supervision required when one is tried but is insane or mentally ill. The courts' treatment of mental illness and the way that judges and juries can over-ride a defense psychiatrist's judgment allows the judge and jury to practice psychiatry without a license. Just like I don't want a medical student doing brain surgery on me, I don't want a judge or jury making mental health decisions. Courts should be reformed so that professional decisions are made by a panel of professionals and not laymen. The incentives of hired guns only getting more cases if they side with the prosecutor is an incentive that will make a wrongfully motivated and greedy psychiatrist twist the facts and testify that a person is not insane when they are insane. If the Psychiatrist does not testify there is no insanity, then they will never again be hired by the prosecutor or court. We need a system where financial incentives don't taint professional's opinions.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
8:12 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
This is why our jury system needs to be changed. A jury deciding whether this woman is mentally ill is like a medical student doing brain surgery. It makes no sense. Its like playing Russian roullete. There is no way to get a fair trial in America when you are mentally ill. Mental illness is treated like seizures during the Salem Witch trials. Juries don't understand how psychosis can completely control a person and make them carefully plan irrational and horrible acts.
Linda Sinclair
8:16 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
where is my post?
Evie Glodic
9:41 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
This "so called Grandmother" s punishment should be to throw her off the same bridge that she threw her grandchild off of. There's an old adage that applies in this case "what's good for the goose is good for the gander"!
Evie Glodic
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:55 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
You are as mentally sick as this grandmother!
TCS
10:05 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
@"DR" Linda Shelton-You do realize that YOUR opinions are YOURS and eveyone else is entitled to THEIRS. Just because you disagree doesn't make everyone else "sick". Your lack of outrage at the fact that this "grandmother" murdered her granddaughter is very disturbing to me. While I respect the fact that you have your opinions, you should, as someone who is suppose to be educated, likewise respect the opinions of the rest of us without calling names. Your arguments make no sense to us normal people. I do question your "Dr" status since you spend so much time on here trying to defend this evil woman instead of seeing your patients.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
10:15 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I am retired and now a civil rights advocate. I did say this crime is "horrible" so your statement that I am not outraged by this crime is patently FALSE. As a pediatrician any death of a child bothers me deeply, but torture by wrongful conviction and denial of mental health care also deeply bothers me. The woman who drowned her five kids was eventually found not guilty by reason of insanity and this grandmother should also be found not guilty by reason of insanity and committed to a secure mental health facility where whe will get proper and humane treatment, not waste our tax dollars on improper treatment and abuse in order to keep her heavily guarded as a maximum security prisoner. You should read more carefully. Yes, "sick" is an appropriate term for anyone who advocates murder. It is like yelling fire in a crowded theatre and I believe that is a criminal act! Advocating murder in writing to the public should also be a crime - it is at the very least sick.
jezabell
11:20 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
you've come to the prognosis just by reading this article that this woman is insane? without even seeing her or talking to her? your the first clarvoyant dr. i've ever met...or are you just assuming she is insane because of her depression,suicide attempts and the horrible act she committed? for you to assume she was insane at the time of this act is a long stretch for you being as you have never treated her...she may be "sick" but that does not mean she was or is insane...
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:47 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
The defense psychiatric expert testified that she was insane and that her just standing there watching people gather around the baby was further evidence of this. If she had carefully planned the murder as a sane person then why didn't she do it without witnesses and why didn't she plan an escape so she wouldn't get caught? There is so much in this story that is so clear in terms of symptoms of psychosis such as a history of not eating or showering for five days, being unable to bond with the baby, irrational delusional thoughts that her family was "secretly communicating in a way she did not understand", and numerous psychiatric hospital admissions, and a mental health expert that also spent a lot of time examining her that it makes it pretty clear, not 100% without a chance to examine her, that she was and probably still is psychotic or having psychotic breaks. I have practiced psychiatry as well as pediatrics, but I am now retired, so I know the criteria used to determine when someone is psychotic. I ask the same question of all others commenting here - How can they make such statements without all the facts - are they psychiatrists that have examined her and sure she is not psychotic?
jezabell
12:02 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
as far your question about others commenting here being psychiatrists, or having examined this woman lol the odds are against that...for you to ask how they can make comments stating she is not psychotic when not having examined her is indeed the same as you making comments without merit that she is insane...they, like you are only going by this article and expressing their oppinions on the matter just as you are doing...can you not see the parallels in your argument? or do you believe yourself to be more educated, more in touch... more attune ? they, like you have their oppionions and oppionion is all we can infer from an article written on the net
jezabell
12:03 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
oh and by the way, i'm sure there was one of those well placed defense psychiatrist that attested to her sanity
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
12:24 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
jezabell - yes a physician in both pediatrics and psychiatry, I am more educated and qualified to comment on a diagnosis than the people who comment on this forum. Also I agree that in his divorce as he says, his wife had a high priced lawyer and therefore, probably a high priced psychiatric report from a hired gun who will say anything for profit falsely stating that the kids should be in her custody because she is normal and he was somehow threatening or dangerous to his kids. That is exactly what we are preparing federal suits and Illinois Supreme Court pleadings to fight against for a number of victims of this kind of court abuse and hired gun phoney profiteering psychiatrists and psychologists in Illinois.
yolanda donnell benitez
10:19 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Let the punishment fit the crime - throw her off a bridge several times so she suffers excrutiating pain, then fry this disgusting monster.......my taxes shouldn't be paying for her !!!!!
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:25 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Suggesting a person should be murdered is an inappropriate comment and should be deleted.
fionna
10:40 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
dr. S. So "the government is picking on you" ?
GB
10:42 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
If I suspected or knew someone had a few screws loose. I would never let my child be around them, family or not. She was not insane, she had big mental problems and it appears everyone in the family knew it.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:23 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
Unfortunately, the average person does not know how to recognize mental illness in a family member. We need a big public health educational campaign to educate the public, employers, and schools to recognize the problems and learn how to handle them or who to call for help. We need to increase access to mental health care. We shouldn't blame the family - were they following doctor's instructions or kept out of the loop in terms of her mental health diagnosis and treatment?
zp
10:49 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
It is hard to believe that "Dr. Linda Shelton" is a doctor if "she" has so much time on her hands to post endlessly about the same article. Blogs are meant for people to vent their emotions so they can have their own opinion. They are not trying to get free help from an online self-assigned "doctor". The government is not to blame for this dead tot. Is the government to blame for people who text and run others off the road? Perhaps not enough signs on the freeway reminding them of the dangers?! The sad thing about this beyond the horrible end of life of an innocent child is that this "grandma" could be out before she is 60 and working in someone's home as a domestic and in charge of their children! She could change her name, go by her maiden name. That is the horrific thing. This whole thing of insanity please IS insane. Of course no one sane murders people. But murders happen all the time in America. Oh, Dr. Dr., is the government responsible for ALL the murders then...? Don't answer. Get back to "work". That was a rhetorical question. I won't be back.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:12 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
If the grandmother was adjudicated to be insane, then she would be in a secure mental health facility and only let out when cured and then only under strict, perhaps lifelong supervision to make sure she takes meds. By giving her a prison sentence, she may not get adequate treatment and even tho she may get out in 14 years when she is 65 yrs old, she won't be able to work with kids as a convicted felon and child murderer. She will be on parole and if she changes her name or flees, she will be a fugitive. The parole boards are not set up to understand mental health issues and may not order her to undergo treatment and life-long supervision. She will not under Virginia law be eligible for parole until she has served 14 yrs.
Jamie Barnhard
10:54 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
I lost my dear 13 y/o Son and Ex wife to Filicide - Murder two months ago. Montgomery County Child Protective Services dismissed my child welfare complaints as unfounded and closed the case files.Some people shouldn't allowed to around children. If you have a bad feeling about someone do something. Unfortunately I was blown out of the water by my Ex her high paid lawyers and her expert witnesses.
Being in a fight with both hands tied behind your back is no fun. I'm left to pick up the pieces. I have a hole in my hear that won't heal. Her sisters that came from California that took what they wanted including my Son's life insurance money and left me with nothing. Just pictures, trinkets and memories. She MURDERED my Son. Where is my Justice???
jezabell
11:25 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
so very sorry to hear about your son ; ; my thoughts and prayers are with you ; ; i could not imagine the pain of losing a child..again i'm so very sorry for your loss...
Keith Devine
4:11 pm on Monday, October 17, 2011
I'm getting into this rather late, sorry about all that Jamie, perhaps I should have said something earlier, actually I'm quite unnerved by this whole event. To be honest I know Jamie Barnhard, not well, we are by no means friends, or even friendly. I haven't spoken to him in about 5yrs, maybe more. Nevertheless, I feel compiled to spoke now on his behalf. Jamie Barnhard, for all his faults, no different than the rest of us, is a compassionate, kind hearted individual. Who gives off himself freely and generously. As far as I can recall, he has always been loyal to those likely enough to be his friend. Always there to lend a hand no matter how difficult or troubling a situation my be. A gentler, nicer, person who tries to easy suffering off others, not add to it. In a term I like to us, among the little people, he would measure as a great among the greatest of us. I know more understanding and compassions is due Jamie, and a whole less accusation and recrimination. For my part, Jamie my thoughts and prayer are with during this time of loss. God bless you & yours
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:05 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
That is exactly why there needs to be reform in the family court and probate court system, as well as in the criminal justice system regarding mental illness and insanity. The system is set up for profiteers as a cottage industry where lawyers and high priced court appoint hack psychiatrist can twist the facts, stretch out the cases in order to make more money and they villify one parent based on misinterpretation and false statements about mental health reports, then order termination of that parent's custody and supervised visits, often giving the abuser or mentally ill person custody, just in order to game the system and get the counseling centers, lawyers, and court system more Title IV-D social security money fraudulently. It is Sick - Sick - Sick! It is destroying families and children, increasing the welfare rolls in impoverishing families, and decreasing the tax base and parents are destroyed, defamed, and lose their jobs.
jezabell
11:26 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
you know you could have given this man your condolences instead of another ranting about the system...
Jamie Barnhard
12:03 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
Dr Shelton,
My Ex Dr. Margaret Jensvold was a fore runner in women's health. She was one of the top 100 Doctors in Washington, DC. She wrote three books on women's health issues (APPI press) She chaired the APA committee of the misuse and abuse of Psychiatry. She was who's who in women in medicine. I knew she had a dark side she hurt me a number of times. I saw it she worked with other clinical professionals why couldn't they see it or pick up on it. They had to see it but she was a doctor one of their own. I knew she could hurt me and she did that's why I left the marriage. I didn't think she would hurt our son but she did. My poor son is the one who lost she killed him and a day later she killed herself. She was waiting on me to pick up my 13 y/o son that she Murdered in cold blood. Then she was going to kill me too. He was not a basket case Autistic child he was made out to be. I loved them both but she was out there and no one would listen to me. Not the court not CPS or any of her colleagues. My life is shattered another blow against psychiatrist in general. It's no wonder people are losing confidence with the mental health profession.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
12:14 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
jezabell - perhaps you don't understand this man's situation - by explaining what actually happens to someone who is abused by the family court system and calling it "Sick" - I am showing great empathy with his situation and helping to spread the facts about abuses in the family court system that resulted in the death of his family. What greater honor can I do to his family then to inform the publc about the details of family court abuses that caused his family to die? Perhaps you are naive about judicial kidnapping, abuse of psychology reports, and high-priced lawyers manipulating the system in divorce courts? If you knew about this, then you wouldn't make an ad hominem baseless attack on me that I "could have given this man your condolences". My comment is clearly NOT a rant. If you Google "family court" you would find a movement of over $400,000 people who are trying to expose these dirty facts and the fact that over a trillion dollars in the last ten years of Social Security Title IV-D funds have been misused in family court around the countrty destroying families instead of preserving them and encouraging mediation and shared parenting. What greater good can I do for the memory of his family then expose the corruption?
jezabell
12:32 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
ummm you could have said something like so sorry for your loss and then gone on with your explanation...and as far as me giving you a "baseless attack" lol slow down nelly, i just made an observation...and am i naive? hmmm...i don't think so, but others might argue the fact...but i am pretty sure there are better venues to get your message across than by replying here to an article on the net...and honestly...it's no big secret that the system is flawed...but you're not goin to change it here...if you feel so strongly about it ...advocate for change...hold rally's, protests,write your congressmen...call dr phil, oprah...something...but if you think by writing this in this forum you are going to bring about change...i think you are sadly mistaken
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
12:47 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
jezabell - That is EXACTLY what I am doing - we had a national protest August 12, 2011 that the press refused to cover. We have over 400,000 people nation wide in our movement to reform family and probate court. We are working with Senator Kirk and a state senator. We have made complaints to the US Attorney and have been writing letters for years. Google "govabuse" and "cookcountycourts" and you will get details about what we are fighting. Our group of activists is trying to help these abused parents write their appeals, understand the laws, educate the public, and push reform. Won't you join us?
Linda Sinclair
11:27 am on Friday, October 7, 2011
This situation is sad....there are suspicion, and etc. We can only pray that the baby girl is found safe...everyone needs to pray for her safe return....
Jamie Barnhard
12:03 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
The fact remains is that a very well respected Psychiatrist Killed her 13y/o son. Because she said she treated patients of children that's parents had committed suicide She stated that they didn't fare well and she wanted to spare him the agony. Who the hell is she to make that choice??? She Killed him and would have killed me too had she had the chance. I now know what she meant when she spoke in riddles. Like you better enjoy the time you have with Ben because he may not always be around. Or when she left with our Son after an evening out and said give us a hug. Stating we always be together you will always be with us... She was waiting on me she had already killed Ben and had I been there I would have been next.
jezabell
12:42 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
i can't imagine the pain...and i know i have no words that could ease it..and she had no right to make that choice...she let you down, the system let you down and you and your son suffer because of it...truly my heart goes out to you...
jezabell
12:58 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
she was wrong that children of parents that commit suicide don't fair well...my daughters dad killed himself when she was five...put a gun to his head in front of us both...it was hard, but we both came thru it...she runs her own business now and has been married for fifteen years and has a beautiful son...i wouldn't say she came out unscathed, neither of us did, but you get thru...i, idk, i'm just, my heart breaks for you...i truly hope that somehow the pain may ease...
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:17 am on Saturday, October 8, 2011
Thank God you were spared. There is nothing I can say to help, but know there are many trying to reform the system so it doesn't happen to others. A system where the expert knows that her son will suffer in it is very sick and needs reform. A system that doesn't even help an expert who has daily contact with other experts is inadequate. It wasn't fair for her to make that "choice". It was made in a cloud of madness. There must be a reason God spared you. I hope you find it.
Jamie Barnhard
1:04 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
Thank You
For your thoughts and prayers. I welcome you or Dr Shelton to contact me directly if you like. I'm Jamie Barnhard <<seakatt1@aol.com>>
Jean
4:05 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
Geez. "Dr S", instead of wasting so much time on your rhetoric perhaps you should go out & actually DO something. Maybe for minimum wage. It might open your eyes a bit to see that people have opinions, feelings & emotions that they are entitled to. Sitting behind a computer all day bashing every person that makes a comment hardly seems productive to me. In my minds eye I picture you to be an arrogant, self-entitled snob. One who needs Perrier rather than just plain old water. I could be wrong, but your endless rants that try to strip away the opinions of others make me see you this way. As "I am superior, surely I must be right". My father was bludgeoned to death with a hammer. Innocent, defenseless 60 y.o. The murderer claimed childhood trauma...... please. At 35 he was a long time from his childhood & could make decisions on his own. Stop feeling sorry for the murderers & show some sympathy for the grieving family. I have yet to see you post anything about helping the family deal with their loss. Where is their support system?
I agree with a lot of you..... toss grandma. My taxpayer $'s should be going to that poor baby's family to help them cope.
jezabell
1:14 pm on Sunday, October 9, 2011
jean...don't take the Dr's harsh words to heart...i think she is just so passionate about her cause that she can't see much else at the moment... i have no doubt that she is a very caring, compassionate person, but i think we are wasting our "breath" here lol ...my mom always told me that your mouth and your ears can't work at the same time lol...i'm truly sorry about your dad ; ; i lost my dad several years back and still have a hole in my heart...can't say that time heals all wounds, cuz it really doesn't but it does get a little easier to deal with the loss...blessed be to you and your family.... :) and best of luck to you ^^
Kim
5:22 pm on Friday, October 7, 2011
None of the people commenting know this family, myself included, so perhaps we should stop making judgments. The parents of that child are suffering terribly. The justice system will do its job. Perhaps we should focus our energy and prayers on the rest of the family.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:08 am on Saturday, October 8, 2011
These comments show what an uphill battle it is to reform the justice system, the family courts & the probate courts. We are such a vindictive culture where we put out fires with an atom bomb instead of preventing the fuel from accumulating. If we had proper mental health care, proper supervision on parole and probation, an education system that is equal to those in other developed countries and jobs, courts that actually follow the law and don't just waste our taxdollars paying court appointed profiteers to destroy families, then many of these people would not have been murdered, and the pain expressed here would not exist. Sympathy goes only so far. It does not bring back the dead. I personally don't want sympathy for my family issues. I want action so that others don't suffer the same fate. Action will only occur when the public is educated, stops playing victim, transfers their energy used to give sympathy into action for change and makes a concerted effort to understand the root of the problem, the flaws in our system and ACTS UNITED with OTHERS to change it. Many here have waged an ad hominen attack on my character. Why? Does this make you feel good? My comments are always educational & constructive. I slipped with my comment calling those that advocate murder "sick", but in general I avoid ad hominen attacks on the character of people I do not know. I'm just appaled at the calls to bludgeon her & throw her off roof and the claim she was mentally normal.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:22 am on Saturday, October 8, 2011
To Jean - instead of making nasty false comments about me - look in the mirror - you know nothing about me - someone who makes such uncalled for defamatory comments needs counseling.
Jean
3:57 am on Sunday, October 9, 2011
Haha...and Dr S. Should I come to you for counseling? lol Sorry, not to sound crass but you are surely taking this personal. When I said I viewed you "In my mind's eye" as one way does that mean that you are actually the way I envision you? Maybe yes & maybe no. How am I to know? I have nothing to "view" you by but your words. And as a few people have previously stated you do come across as harsh & judgemental. This sort of behavior is out of character for a "Psychiatrist" I have yet to see a post where you have validated a person's feelings or showed any equality in views. Yes, I agree there is a lack of education on mental health & interventions that can improve one's care. But your lack of emotion to others who post or your rebuking for their "lack of education" is not going to bring unity to foster change. Perhaps if you showed some sensitivity to other's they in turn could listen or think on what you post. Instead, you come in with your "knowledge sword" & chop their posts to bits. Is that fair? Is that right? Who deemed you all-knowing? The more you post the more I am doubting your credibility in title.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:59 am on Sunday, October 9, 2011
Jean - I find it astonishing that you only validate people who wear emotion on their sleeve & defame others like me that try very hard not to bring their tragedies to others in comments on blogs but instead steer their grief into providing factual information to the public. People like you that spend their time making ad hominem attacks on others on line have a deep seeded need to be better than others & will attack most voraciously those with higher credentials. Empathy & compassion can be expressed in more ways than just crying - "Oh I am so sorry and feel for your loss". Understanding why they had that loss & actually getting out there & working to change the root causes & educating the public on line so that our society is lifted up instead of wallowing in pity & inaction is a greater act of love for those we lost than crying & degrading others - don't you agree? Falsely defaming others like you are trying to do with me - with silly false nonsense such as "you do come across as harsh & judgmental" & "This sort of behavior is out of character for a "psychiatrist"" reveal a sad need for adulation by others. Jean, you need psychiatric help to deal with your need to belittle and defame others. There must have been a deep cutting tragedy in your life that belittled you or diminished you in your mind causing you to have to try to hurt others so intensely. The horror of what happened to your dad is clearly more complex than you express. I will pray you get help & find peace.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:32 am on Saturday, October 8, 2011
Jean - opinions, feelings and emotions are appropriately vented here. However advocating heinous murder like bludgeoning, throwing off roof is not appropriate. Making false statements that people who are psychotic cannot plan an irrational act is an appropriate statement to refute as false. There is nothing wrong or immoral about commenting about statements concerning the grandmother's mental health, when the statements are clearly not true. To generalize that no one has a right to make a comment in opposition to false statements when the commentator has experience and knowledge of the issues is just silly and amounts to an ad hominem attack - yes I know if you had someone murdered you may have hatred and vindictiveness in your heart that cloud your thoughts and you never want to excuse the murderer. However, there really are murderers and criminals who act irrationally out of mental illness. The courts are flawed and those that are trully mentally ill are not committed to secure psych facilities and are given unreasonable sentences while those that are not mentally ill lose their kids due to misuse of psychological reports and flawed profiteering family and probate courts. The system doesn't work - we need to work together to expose it, ID the problems and fix it. As long as the public is fighting each other instead of attacking the root cause of the problems nothing will change.
jezabell
2:22 pm on Saturday, October 8, 2011
Dr. Shelton, i understand your passion with which you fight the injustices you see in our judicial system and beyond, but i think that you have a tendency to go about it the wrong way and tend to put off the very people you would like to enlist to help in your endevor...i think some people see your words as an attack on
their intelligence...perhaps wrongly, but if you want to enlist people, enlighten them instead of making them feel as though you think you are superior...if you are indeed a psychiatrist, you should know that if you come off as arogant, or superior, your actions and words fall on deaf ears...please don't take my constructive advice as an ad hominem attack, because it is not meant as such...it seems as though the system has let you down in some way that has moved you to action...and i wish you nothing but the best in that endevor...and i know passion tends to lend us to rash words, but perhaps in the future you may want to choose your words more delicately.. good luck to you :)
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
7:55 pm on Saturday, October 8, 2011
jezzabell - in all honesty I agree with you in many ways, but I am often dense and clueless to comments such as yours and I really don't understand what words you find not "delicate" enough. Please enlighten me as to why you think my suggestions that I feel are open, honest, polite, cogent and logical are offensive or turn people off or make me appear "arrogant." Just because I have some knowledge and experioence and I state the facts or give opinion based on experience, is no reason to call me arrogant. Are people really that closed minded and arrogant? I feel my words have been very delicate. Please feel free to tell me what words exactly you find offensive and why. I actually feel many of the people making comments here are sick to suggest we should bludgeon or throw the woman off the roof. I also feel that it is arrogant and closed minded to say that a person is not mentally ill when they can plan a bizarre or irrational criminal act. I could have said such things in the above comments and been very nasty and personally attack people but I didn't. Instead, I stated the facts and gave explanation like when I give a lecture. I feel people are not open to learning about mental illness when they close their minds and instead attack the well intentioned messenger personally who simply is trying to bring factual rather than emotional details into the discussion.
Jean
4:12 am on Sunday, October 9, 2011
And as for judgements...did you not make one of me here when you stated my "thoughts are clouded & I must harbor hatred & vindictiveness in my heart" for I had a loved one murdered? Can you really see my heart or my thoughts through your computer screen? No, you cannot. I have no hatred, no pent-up aggression to be resolved. The court was fair & just and this murderer will pay for the crime. Will that bring my father back? No, it will not. Did I ask the judge to spare this murderer's life? Yes I did. Unlike your view of most of us we are not all waiting to become a mob & destroy all the "evil" people. We do have thoughts & views & emotions that we are entitled to. I forgave this man & my heart breaks that I do not have a father but in turn his young child now deals with the loss of her father & also the shame that may consume her when she finds out of her heritage. This world is far from perfect & far from unified. Change can only take place where there is education that is brought to people in an attitude of help, not in an authoritarian way. You must teach people in a manner where you reach out & meet them on their level. Until you are able to look within yourself & see why no one has been receptive to you, you will not foster any change & your words will fall on deaf ears. People need to work as a team to make a change. Read your posts, try to truly see if you have engaged anyone in a positive manner. Constant negativity will only breed negative results.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
10:34 am on Sunday, October 9, 2011
Jean - for decades people have been grateful for the help I have given them with my words and guidance, not in the public eye. In my town there have been many letters to the editor thanking me. On line on other forums people are very greatful for my advice and statements and I am grateful for their comments. Your statement that "no one has been receptive to you" is simple nonsense.You are unable to see how what I say helps and is empathic yet educatiobnal because of your deep seeded need to hurt others. The "Constant negativity" is only in your mind and a few others who are like you and also need counseling. I will pray that you seek counseling to find out what is so deep inside that hurts so much, that belittled you falsely, that is driving you to make such defamatory and false comments in order to boost your self esteem. People do heal and I will meditate and pray that you find peace.
jezabell
10:57 pm on Saturday, October 8, 2011
i did not intend to call you arrogant and if that is how you interpreted it i am indeed sorry...i merely am suggesting that to some that have commented here you may appear that way..comments such as " Unfortunately, the average person does not know how to recognize mental illness in a family member." tends to make one believe that you find yourself above the "average person". "I am more educated and qualified to comment on a diagnosis than the people who comment on this forum." is another statement that would tend to make people believe you hold yourself above them, when in all honesty, you don't know how qualified or educated anyone in this forum may or may not be...i don't find any of your statements offensive, and i don't think i ever implied that i was offended..but again if that is how you preceived it i applogize and again best of luck on your endeavors
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
11:49 pm on Saturday, October 8, 2011
I find it unfortunate that people who are clearly not medically trained or legally trained like I am would find it offensive for someone who is medically and legally trained to say "the average person ..." There is a bias against education and honest debate in this country that is bringing us down as a nation. I would expect people to appreciate that someone with a specialty education would take the time NOT to be snooty and arrogant and think talking to the public is above them, but to take the time and effort to explain in lay language complex issues in psychiatry. I was always hungry for knowledge and appreciative of anyone who explained anything to me. That is how I learned to do plumbing! It is destroying our country to be spreading an attitude that sharing knowledge is somehow arrogant. This is why we are known around the world as "stupid and ignorant arrogant Americans."
jezabell
11:56 pm on Saturday, October 8, 2011
i guess we will agree to disagree then, one master's to another...
Kevin G.
7:03 am on Sunday, October 9, 2011
Her fellow inmates will not look favorably upon her. She will have a tough life behind bars; if she lasts that long. They tend to "deal with" folks such as her rather quickly.
Jean
3:48 pm on Sunday, October 9, 2011
Jezabell..... I concur with your statement. It really is a mute point.
"Dr. S" seek counsel from your colleagues... you may be too educated to think you need help but to everyone reading it is clear that you do.
Dr. Linda Lorincz Shelton
9:50 pm on Sunday, October 9, 2011
Jean - we have to agree to disagree. Clearly - "everybody" means only you and one or two people on this comment site. I got professional counseling from one of my colleagues several years ago for the PTSD and he was very helpful. What YOU as a non-professional think is an issue is not, but you apparently have a fixed belief that it is so there is no point in discussing things anymore. I will meditate and pray that you get the help you need with your trauma. Good luck!
Jean
5:57 pm on Monday, October 10, 2011
What ASSumptions you make to think I am a "non-professional". Unlike you I do not need my education / profession to define who I am. I am so sorry that you have such low-selfesteem issues that you have to flaunt your supposed degree as a peacock. But again, you are just words typed out.... for all I know you are a child. So with that I will give you an old adage that you may better understand (revised) "Sticks & stones may break my bones but your mean words S will never hurt me".
Jean
7:00 am on Wednesday, October 12, 2011
And Jezabell..... thank you for your caring words, I just now saw your post (it got lost in all the ranting). May your family be blessed as well.
Jamie Barnhard
1:23 pm on Wednesday, October 12, 2011
This Grandmother like my Ex. Wife that shot and killed our dear Son then herself in a murder-suicide was clearly mentally ill. Someone should have seen it or picked up on it. The signs were there no one would listen to me. My reports fell on deaf ears. After all she was a very well respected psychiatrist.